20 Reasons I'm No Longer Pursuing NSD

Thanks for posting this again. It really is an eye opener for all of us. I don't see how any rah rah kaybot can dispute these facts from someone on the inside, someone who was an NIQ. I am so glad that I'm not associated with this company any longer.

To me, this is the most astounding thing of all. We know Directors come here and read. That they can read this-what they know to be true- and go back to do their Unit Meeting tonight with a plastered on smile and a rah rah attitude is beyond comprehension. You are being dragged to the poorhouse, waiting for it to "turn around" by intermittant "wins" and majority losses. WAKE UP, DIRECTORS. You are being USED to keep your upline afloat and you are USING others to do the same. That's called a PYRAMID.

This is my all-time favorite post and the one I tell newcomers to PT to read first.

This also confirmed everything I'd had suspicions about regarding directorship and what really goes on behind the scenes.

I've never met jta, but I love her for sharing her story with us.

*Girlfriend, if you're out there, big hugs from pinkpeace!*

jta- thank you so much for sharing again. You did a great job! You have my respect for the courage and integrity you demonstrated, by walking away at that time.

Raisin- you are so right about being used. I voiced my plans to step down to my director, after I spent a few years struggling most of the time to make production. I soon received a phone call from her senior who shared her plans to enter NIQ in 2 months. What a sell she did on me and boy was she smooth. I NEVER imagined she was the type of woman to use someone or do unethical things. She was one of the "better" ones - or so I thought. Soon I was her best friend and my guilt got the best of me. How could I stand in the way of all she had worked for her entire adult life? EVERY other director in the area was on board. The pressure was immense. I decided I would dig down and help her and in the process it would help me too. Well, NIQ for the downline directors,is not fun, as many on this site will agree. It is a ramped up version of DIQ, only more expensive and with more pressure.
Well, long story short, we made it and by the last month this NIQ person was putting unknown people in my unit because I was short a few heads. She had me place a large order in my name and ship it to her house and she paid for the order. She also mentioned there was no way corporate would know and not to mention it to my director. I was very uncomfortable and didn't know what to do. I should have refused, but she put so much pressure on me it was hard. After all, we were going to debut at Seminar! I'm not proud but I sure learned my lesson. After Seminar, I stepped down and she could have cared less. I lost all respect for her and many others in the process. I wish I had known about PT at the time.

I hope all you lurkers, especially the directors, reread this article by jta.
Reclaim your life today. Make your way out of the fog and let all the wonderful women at Pink Truth help you. We HAVE walked in your shoes. We have more comfortable ones waiting for you!

I was there when Joyce Grady became a national and I remember her saying that a couple of days before her NIQ qualification period was up that "I didn't think it was going to happen, but my directors pulled together and - without my knowledge - made it happen for me."

I had no idea what she meant back then. But now I know that those directors pulled out every credit card they could get their hands on and just ordered.

Also, lurkers, how do you think people have "24 hour miracles" on June 30th? Do you think they sold and/or legitimately recruited people at midnight to the tune of $25,0000 wholesale?????

Wow-powerful!!!!

Just after I came to PT I found this article and devoured every word!
I had thought there was something very wrong with me because I was starting to struggle as a Director. I was going into debt rather than paying anything off and I couldn't understand how all the big girls got to the top and I just didn't seem to be cutting it.
I found jta's article and it opened my eyes to the deceit going on inside Mary Kay Cosmetics and the down right lying to save face/units going on with many Directors. I mean if it only gets worse the higher you go.....I knew it wasn't for me.
Thank heaven for Pink Truth, the honest and beautiful former Directors and Consultants here!
Thank you jta and others who have shared the reality of the upper levels of the cult so that many could come out and be spared additional devastation brought about by the lie called Mary Kay Cosmetics!

If you are a Director or Consultant reading here, I hope you will realize this one thing:
You will not be the one to do it differently. It will happen the same for you as it did for everyone else who sought the rise in the company. No one can win, only Corporate and Mary Kay's heirs. And, it is sad, sad, sad how many have paid and still pay a big price thinking their story will be different. It won't!

Jta, I thank you from a grateful heart for sharing truth with us that day. Your article has power beyond words!

Mary Kayless Blessings sent your way wherever you are today!

Thank You, JTA for writing this. You will help so many begin to come out of the fog.

"How do you think people have "24 hour miracles" on June 30th? Do you think they sold and/or legitimately recruited people at midnight to the tune of $25,0000 wholesale?"

How, indeed. There's more than a few of these "miraculous" accounts floating around in MK Land and for me, they raise more questions than provide answers. Here's another example:

"In their last week of DIQ, Allison constantly believed in her goal, she supported her team and she worked until the last minute - literally!!! Allison's team finished at 12:45am on November 30th!"

As Freeandempowered mentioned, what sort of work do you think is going on with this DIQer at nearly 1 o'clock in the morning? I'm confident there's no skin care classes being held, product being sold, or recruiting coffees being conducted, so what else can a hard-working DIQ do?

She can log onto InTouch.
She can place credit card orders.

Mary Kay I-stories won't word it like that, though; they tend to use inspiring-sounding (and vague) catchphrases such as, "believed in her goal" and "supported her team."

This is one of my favorites too, and it never gets old. I'll be recycling this one regularly.

JTA - thanks! When I first started "lurking" I think I read this soon after. It resonated with my heart. Thanks for being honest and forthright - it makes a huge difference.

This was the beginning of the end for me after reading this- even though my unit never soared high, and I tried to do things as honestly and ethically as I could, I realized that in order to really move and groove, you couldn't be that way.

I looked at the directors around me that were moving fast, they were in constant MK mode - they looked frazzled and tired. But what I was really seeing that made me cringe was the lying going on. Oh, it's subtle, it's smooth, it's called lies of omission. Not telling the newbie everything. Leaving out a little information here, a little there, leaving only the information that paints a really good picture. It's total deception anyway you look at it, but we always brush it off because we didn't SAY the lie, it's all in what we didn't say. "I work parttime and make executive income from home", "My highest check is ____ for one month" (and it was from 10 yrs ago! and you haven't made that since!) "I drive a free car!" (but makes co-pays every other quarter) "I just love working with women" (but bad mouths them behind their backs) - the list goes on. These are only a few examples of what I've personally witnessed - so I know there's more.

Pink lies, white lies, slight lies, lies of omission - they are all still lies and it's sin according to the Bible.

Thanks again JTA for being strong and posting this article. Thanks Tracy for bringing it back.

Thanks Tracy for recycling this. Every time I read it I am reminded of all the crap that goes on behind the scenes and of all the pretending that goes on.

I agree with JTA about what is done in DIQ. I also never met a single director that did not cheat in some way to make it to directorship. I signed up several relatives and bought a few orders to miraculously finish by midnight of November 30th. One of my really loyal teammembers did the same. I added 5 new people that day to finish, not a single one of them was a real consultant. I felt like such a fake until I discovered that I was not the only one.

So I started asking directors at Seminar and Leadership how they finished DIQ and found out everyone does this. When I went to New Director Training in Dallas, corporate and the top directors that taught that week even made jokes about pets, grandmothers and distand cousins being in some units.

You can't succeed in MK without cheating and the higher you go the more you have to compromise.

Beautiful, JTA.

WOW - I am so relieved to know that someone in NIQ has a sense of morality.

I too, was a Sales Director for 3 years,
resigned 1 year ago, and shared your experience being in a NIQ area. Only difference was that I was in DIQ then and you were the NIQ. My NSD used me
in the same horrible manner that you described. I earned the car in DIQ, became Director and it was a long experience in hell from then on until I resigned as Director 1 year ago. I am in the same position as your Sales Director with the basement full of inventory except mine is in my office.
I suffered miserably with a unit that just could'nt get off the ground. My unit production was hit and miss every other month and my NSD insisted that I make it happen by putting my Big Girl Panties ON. I am a single parent with two children and a fulltime municipal
job. My NSD insisted over and over again that my unit was a failure because I didn't have the strenth to quite my fulltime 20 year municipal job and tend to my unit in the proper way. I worked around the clock everyday 7 days a week. I barely spent time with my children anymore and they were both
angry, sad, and very upset. I remember my 8 year old daughter saying to me on so many occasions "Mom -God first, family second, career third". I kept thinking - this is so messed up. I'm not making any money at this. I tried so hard to make it happen over and over again. I had skin care classes, many customers, I recruited, had meetings that noone showed up to. I kept trying to re-invent the wheel. I attended absolutely everything. Seminar, Career Conferences, Leadership, Fall Retreats,
Spring Advances, meetings. I was spending more money that I had ever done in my life. When my production wasn't there, I bought it. I didn't want to loose my car. It was the only one I had. I thought many times. You should just buy or lease a car, it would be much cheaper. But my NSD insisted that it would be a SHAME to loose my car and I needed to work harder. She kept insisting that I wasn't working at all and that I needed to stop making excuses for failing.

I too have around $34,000.00 in inventory sitting on my shelves and now
the packaging had changed so it's not easy to sell or do classes with. I am still a consultant because I need to keep my customers to sell my inventory to. I keep having all these sales just to get rid of it.

The thing that was my turning point was that I was given a challenge to finish one of the three New Director Challenges. I had not focused on it and my NSD told me that I had 6 days left to complete this challenge. It had NEVER been completed in 34 years her unit or area ever. We went over the numbers at Seminar and I told her that I didn't have enough time to finish it. She waited and then told me that it would be such an HONOR to have one of her 1st line Directors finish this challenge and that I would win a trip to a specific place that I have ALWAYS wanted to go to, the Dominican Republic, which she Knew, and that if I finished, she would take me there, all expenses paid in the fall of that year, alongside anyone else that finished 1 of 3 challenges too! I came home from Seminar and took 4 days off from my JOB and worked and worked and finished that
challenge. SHE was SO PROUD of me. In all the newsletters, at meetings. The Hoopla was great but the trip NEVER came. She made one excuse after another. Her NIQ Debut, Career Conference, Fall Retreat, never time for it. I found out a year later that because she was an NSD, she received a $10,000.00 bonus check from
MK because I was her 1st line offspring and finished the challenge. When I asked her if it was true, she curtly replied, why yes, I thought that you knew that I would get a $10,000.00 bonus or maybe I forgot to mention it.

Upon resigning as Sales Director, I asked her again about the trip (three years later) and she said, yes I still owe you the trip. A few months ago she left a phone message regarding the trip and that she had planned it and couldn't wait to tell me about it, and that I should call her back right away.
Upon calling her back she discussed everything about eveything but the trip.
When I questioned her about the message she told me, Oh yes!! She told me about a different trip she had planned for Directors and that she would substitute that one for the one she owed me, all expenses paid. Only ONE
small problem, consultants aren't allowed to stay with Directors, hang out with, sleep in the same room with, etc. so in order to go on this trip, I would have to re-qualify for the trip.
I asked re-qualify how? She replied, you need to become a Sales Director by fall. I said no thank you. Like really,
I am going to become a Sales Director to go on a trip to someplace that I have no desire to go, when I already earned the trip fair and square and she got a $10,000.00 bonus for it.
That was really it for me. I lost every bit of respect I ever had for her.

When I first resigned as Sales Director
she would call me and call me and call me. I didn't answer my phone, my cell phone because I had caller ID, she started calling me at work. I was so tired of having to explain why I didn't want to go into DIQ again.

I explained to her that my youngest daughter, my dearheart to boot, was 6 years old when I joined MK and that she was 16 when I came out of my Pink Director fog and that I felt horrible that I missed so much of her childhood.
I just wanted to spend what time I had left with her before she went away to college. My NSD explained to me that
children grow up everyday with or without their parents. I needed to get a reality check and that becoming a Sales Director again would be the BEST thing that I could EVER do for my daughter because I could earn her college tuition. I hate to tell all of you that my daughter's college tuition is sitting in my MK office right now collecting dust and she expects me to fall for this again.

I am so ashamed to admit that I was so VERY BRAINWASHED by this NSD. She was like my MK MOM. The only smart thing I did was not quit my 20 year municipal JOB with full benefits and a tremendous retirement package. Am I OK?? YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!! Am I poorer?
YES!!!!! but it's only money!!

Just for the record, my NSD lost 19
Sales Directors in her area within the last 5 years. 4 or 5 were second line Directors. Does that tell you anything?

I want to thank jta for sharing her NIQ
experience. It's made me feel better knowing that she cared enough about her people to not want to destroy them.

2pink4me,

That sound you just heard was my jaw hitting the floor. I am flabbergasted by your story and rendered...speechless.

I don't feel I can really add anything intelligent comment wise. But wanted to thank JTA and 2pink4me for sharing their experiences and the reality of it all. Wow. Just wow.

A big thank you to JTA and everybody who's contributed to this post. Every time I have a pity party for myself and think about what could have been, I come back to this post and get that very needed shot in the arm. I could barely get to three -- let alone 30 -- without deceit, and I wouldn't stand for it.

And to think that I envied the lifestyles of some Nationals!

Wow 2pink4me what an amazing story. Thank you so much for sharing it. This type of story makes me so grateful that I never became a SD.

2pink...like ttp, I am sitting here reading and feel like someone hit me on the head with a sledge hammer.

I am so SICK of these frauds. They are GREAT at taking YOUR MONEY and complete MISERS about their own! I wish you would post your NSD's name. SERIOUSLY.

Her deeds need to be EXPOSED. I had adoptees under Mrs."I-need-1200-dollars-Banks" who went to meetings of her offspring Directors who had no idea who was "in their Unit" yet since the Make it happen girls stuffed faces into 'em to hit 30 active.

These are those SOOOO AWESOME roll models you are supposed to worship! PLEASE, share this Predator's name so all involved in her area who may read here, won't get sucked into believing in her.

Gag-I am mad all over again. They are liars and frauds hiding under glitz and glam.

Amazing. I love that story. My husband and I used to drive around the big cities and look at all the fancy houses and joke with each other about how this one is our summer home, and this one is our vacation home, and this is our guest home, etc. and now when we drive around, they are all sitting empty with "for sale" signs in the yards because people lost many jobs in the last few years, and I realized that it was all an illusion. No one ever really owned any of these fancy houses, cars, etc.

It was all debt. Just one big illusion and game: Who can get the most credit. People worked many years to keep up this illusion, and then one day it was all gone. Vanished...Just like the leaves on the trees will soon be gone.

This is what Mary Kay is. One big illusion and loads and loads of debt. Whoever can get the most credit cards wins. When I first started I would eagerly read our unit newsletters only to find that our top ten worker bees were only getting $8.00 to $32.00 commission per month. Their sales did not match their orders either. Every single one of them ordered way more than they sold, and the orders were much larger every other month (the same "every other month" when our Director would dial-for-dollars, urging us to order before the last day of the month because we didn't have a full store yet, or we needed the latest and greatest limited-edition items.)

When I was recruiting and on my way to Directorship, I heard about "fake it till you make it" and I wondered..."Are all of the NSD's faking it? Maybe they are in debt worse than my unit members" and that was the end of the dream for me.

I just pray for all the women out there who think that their situation will be different. That they will do it the right way, and it will work out better for them. All the women who are out there thinking "If she can do it, so can I".

Lurkers,
There is so much more to life than Mary Kay and it is possible to enrich lives without cosmetics. Don't shun your family to chase a dream. Only 2% ever achieve the "dream" (that is, unless they are "faking it till they make it". The rest are left with the cold hard reality check that all of their "bee-lief" ended in mountains of credit card debt and basements full of product.

2pink: Thanks for sharing. Some of us have been there at that intensity of "fog" and are also trying to recover. Become a student of Dave Ramsey and you'll get back on track. It has transformed my life because it gives me hope for today and takes the worry burden away. Find different ways to get the product out of the house. My product overload "cleansing" was so freeing! I liquidated, gave it to customers and donated. Anything older I threw away. I kept track of each and every item and had very accurate records for tax time so I could take the loss I was entitled too.

As a SD for ten years, I worked closely with several local Directors who were in my family line. There is one Director who is a self-proclaimed future NSD. She's been talking about it for over ten years and goes back and forth between 3-5 first line and 2-3 second line, but hasn't gone beyond that. I was not in her line, so I was only useful to her for sharing in our event expenses. It got to the point where I was so tired of listening to the same ol' spiel from her, I had to leave the room. She was a big one to criticize the ones who didn't think like her. She also played a good victim role when other Directors decided they didn't want to work with her and do things her way.

How many years does it take for a woman to open her eyes and realize that if it hasn't happened yet, it's most likely not going to happen at all? Obviously lots and lots. I understand firsthand how one can hold on to an ideal for so long with blind faith. Thank goodness for awakenings and turning points and new beginnings!!

2pink! Your story makes me so angry.
I hope you do post your NSDs name for all to see her shame!
You, my dear, can hold your head high because you are one remarkable woman to realize the truth and get the heck out.

Picture this in your mind:
The fires of hell are being heated up right now for this woman for the way she took advantage of you and probably others too!
Thanks for sharing your story for all to see because hopefully another woman will recognize herself in what you have gone through and she'll get out too!
Isn't it sick how this happens over and over again!!!

POWERFUL

I have always felt that JTA's article was one of the finest ever posted on this site. What inner strength it took to make the decision that she did! Her action and words will continue to inspire countless more womem who come to this site I think of her often and hope that she has found peace, happiness, and fullfillment her post-MK life.

Thank you for all the great inspiring real and true shared experiences. For all the creative business tactics in MK, the company has not done much in the real business world. Business Week magazine, for September 28, 2009, listed the top 100 global brands for all companies, not only cosmetics companies. Guess what, MK is not in the 100. However, L'Oreal is #51, Avon is #69, Lancome is #91. Coca-Cola was #1 and Campbell's was #100. MK should spend time and money perfecting their business position. From this data in Business Week it is hard to bee-lieve that MK is America's #1 selling brand of cosmetics. That is a falsehood about the company as well.

2pink4me, thank you so much for sharing your experience. Just when I think I have heard and read it all, you see even more vile and low behavior.

Your story should also be posted on the front page for all to see. How that NSD can even look at herself in the mirror is totally beyond me. Glad to see that you escaped and are getting your life back. You are a survivor! Hugs to you from Chop.

Just when I start to tell myself that what I experienced in MK "wasn't that bad" or that the choices I made where just "bad, unfortunate mistakes"...I read something here at PT that slams back in my face the reality of the horrible, unmoral company that MK is. It is a lie that hides behind the "good christian woman" and the "something for nothing" type of dream. It was really a powerful article and I am VERY glad I read it along with all the posts regarding it. Thank you everyone.

After I had been away from MK for awhile I ran into a woman who was an adoptee in the unit I had been in. She was struggling trying to decide what to do. Seems her NSD director, had come to her at the "recommendation" of her director. The NSD was close to losing her area and needed a couple of directors. She was very up front with this IBC. Told her she HAD to get some new units. The NSD offered to come into the area, recruit and "establish" the unit for her - and the IBC would be the director. All she had to do was work with the NSD "a bit" and agree to be the director of this new unit. Her husband didn't feel good about it. But she said she was being handed a golden opportuntiy. She was debating what to do. It didn't feel right yet how could she not accept having the MK dream - directorship - given to her? (Looking back you know it would not have been like that either...) She had also heard that this NSD woman had recruited a lot of "close to 18 year old girls" who were not quite that age, but just put the "right" birth date year down on the agreement. I said that I wouldn't do it - what you send out comes back. I also said that I wonder how you can ask God to "bless you and your unit to bless the lives of women" by being dishonest - read - FRAUDULENT. She said yes, that was her gut feeling but this NSD was really pressuring her. She didn't do it - eventually left MK altogehter and became a TEACHER. One of the best teachers I know. Saw her awhile back and she is so happy. Really thankful she didn't go down that slippery slope. By the way, that NSD incident was about 20 years ago or so - so this has been going on a LONG LONG time. :s

2pink4me and vintagegold - I would love to have you both write up your stories to be featured on the front page. With (or without) as many details as you're comfortable sharing. These are powerful stories, no matter how many times they are told. Thousands of new visitors come to this site each week. They need your stories.

Just when I think I've heard and read it all, I read the stories here by JTA and 2Pink.

God bless you both for your bravery and courage in sharing and stepping away from the pink nightmare.

It's sad that while reading this, I'm wondering just how many of us are thinking "I bet I know who the NSD is" Unfortunately, we know there are more than one or two doing things like this to their downline.

This really sickens me.

All really, really good stories here. So much enlightenment, I do hope women in need of a reality check stumble upon PT today.

The thing that gets me, is that I doubt very many women sign up with MK with dreams of becoming NSD. I think more likely, many sign up to get "the discount" (ha! what a joke), as a hobby, or just to earn a little extra money.

Little by little, the brainwashing starts to sink in, and we believe the crap that we witness at meetings. Perhaps one of our few customers wants the discount too, and our SD gets so excited that you've signed up your first recruit! She makes you feel special, like you really are special. Over and above the rest of the consultants, how you are great and should get your Red Jacket, and here, just let me help you.

All of a sudden you are a Team Leader, you are praised and applauded, and are told, "I just know you are going to be the next Director!!!!!!!!" And you start to believe that you actually want that.

So starts the slippery slope. Ick. So glad to be done with all of the never ending bullshi/t that is Mary Kay.

Since we know Mary Kay Corp reads here everyday...if there truly was one ounce of integrity they would get in touch with Tracy, and connect with some of our members...even anonymously and FIND OUT which of their illustrious NSD's are being exposed here.

Want to know how easy it would be to find out which Area's promote CRAP?

INTERVIEW YOUR EXITING DIRECTORS!

Hey-anybody go to Leadership last year?? Was there an ETHICS class for you all to attend??? Hmmmm????

Raisinberry regarding NSD GMB, I guess that I'm just a litle schocked. I remember a few years ago at some conference on the east coast, she was the visiting NSD and guest speaker. Her entire area was there and took up most of the conference hall. During break time myself, my NSD and my sister Sales Directors were outside of the hall in the carpeted area, when GMB emerged from a conference hall door. I had never seen her in person before but knew who she was instantly. Well within seconds, women of all ages came running out of the doors, swarming around her like she was a movie star, totally in awe of her importance, running after her in their high heels and hose yelling and chanting "National" "National" "National can you autograph my training schedule?" National can I ask you a question?" "National, National can I take a picture with you?" "National please write your name on my hand." It went on and on for minutes. GMB never even once even acknowleged that they were there. "National I'm from you NY group" "National I'm from your Georgia group" "National just let me touch you for luck" It went on and on. About 40 women running after her. GMB never stopped, never talked, never made eye contact, just kept walking across the room to the escalator holding her head up high, shoulders back, strutting her stuff. It was a long way too. I was amazed and asked my NSD why doesn't she stop? These women are obviuously her people. My NSD replied, she wants them to know who she is. Their leader and if it wasn't for her, none of them would be here. It blew me away, that all these women would come out during a snow storm from all kinds of states to see their National for the very first time and that she would act like that. My NSD stated that we were all very lucky to have her so close by and to as close to her as we were and that sometimes she felt that it was a downfall for her. She could understand why GMB was acting like that. I think that my NSD was also in awe of her.

Later on when GMB gave her speech up on stage, she praised her area and blew kisses and thank yous to the same women that she wouldn't even stop to acknowledge. It was kind of sickening to me but after reading the above posts, I guess that now I finally understand that she is so far on top that she doesn't remember or care about the people that she had to step to get to wher she is at. Thank you for enlightening me Raisinberry.

"GMB never even once even acknowleged that they were there. GMB never stopped, never talked, never made eye contact, just kept walking across the room to the escalator holding her head up high, shoulders back, strutting her stuff."

Maybe because she has to save her energy for the "gotta get another order in for me" video spiel?

Why am I not shocked? I saw GMB at some random group session and luncheon and had the privilege of being with her in the ladies room. Of course she was surrounded by a parade of directors and it was pretty crowded in there to say the least. They were swarming her like bees. It was pretty pathetic, and quite frankly, I didn't think she said anything great that I remember. She was just singing her own praises.

2pink4me- Your Nsd said, "Their leader and if it wasn't for her, none of them would be here."

This is 100% horsesh/t.

Not only that, but this so called opportunity is nothing but theater.

It is the Directors and DIQ's in the trenches that recruit the numbers that move these bee-itches up the ranks. Gloria's contempt for her area and for all the fawning consultants and Directors is obvious. How pathetic we all must be in her eyes to have fallen for her "theater" and her concocted celebrity. And what exactly is she famous for?

FRONTLOADING more women, faster than any other. Wa- La. Grand! Stupendous.
She snatched the financial strength away from believing and unsuspecting women, manipulated them into wanting to be "in her space", developed a comedic I story that endeared her, and RIPPED OFF THOUSANDS OF WOMEN with bogus promises about how ridiculously EASY Mary Kay was to sell.

"Put that on...now take that off...now put that on...now take that off...You want some?"

Well Gloria, dear...it ain't that easy. And anyone that lifts you up as a leader is tragically blind and doubly duped. And using women to get your next 1200.00 order to beat Helou into the ground, is all about YOU and NOTHING but PATSY about them.

"I saw GMB at some random group session and luncheon and had the privilege of being with her in the ladies room."

An audience with her majesty in the throne room?

I'm jealous!

Still Breaking the Basic, I hope you know I was joking about the "privilege". It was hard to get the door open to leave. I left before I knew what she was up to. I'm sure if she had to go she would told her flock to flee.

GMB actually posed for a picture with a few of us that heard her speak. I can only imagine the thoughts that went through her head during that pic. opportunity. How sad,I used to cherish that picture... now it makes me sick.

[quote]How sad,I used to cherish that picture.[/quote]

Ditto. To tell you how far back I go I had one with Shirley Hutton (THE queen of it all in her day) at my first career conference. I also had a later one with Sherril Steinman (sp?) at Seminar.
Now I feel the same way MYComfortzone.

To be fair, I remember Shirley being very nice to meet. I was young excited and super impressionable.

I was in GMB unit before she made National and after. And she has changed. But you HAVE to change to make it to that level.

I think she doesn't speak to people now or make eye contact because it would force her to see these women as people instead of numbers. And I truly believe to make it to that level, you have to be willing to be so conniving, heartless, and detached from the reality of what you are doing to women and their families that any real acknowlegement of them would make you see how destructive you really are - and she, and the other NSDs, can't afford to take that risk and see the truth.

That's why they (and corp) completely try to ignore this site and to get their people to ignore this site. Otherwise, they would welcome dialogue from us to see if there are ways they could improve the way they do business.

"Their leader and if it wasn't for her, none of them would be here."

Uh, NO. Try the other way around. Without those orders, Gloria'd be managing the fryer at Popeye's and asking me how many honey sauce packets I need. (three please) But at least she'd be doing honest work, as opposed to squeezing the masses for the $1200 orders.

GMB's one of the many NSDs that charge downline members for the "privilege" of visiting her home, given that your star order is large enough, of course.

[IMG]http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z227/sportica/notwelcome.jpg[/IMG]

Between this and offering used clothing to downline members as a prize (NSD Pam Shaw), Mary Kay's National Sales Directors truly know how to keep things classy.

think she doesn't speak to people now or make eye contact because it would force her to see these women as people instead of numbers. And I truly believe to make it to that level, you have to be willing to be so conniving, heartless, and detached from the reality of what you are doing to women and their families that any real acknowlegement of them would make you see how destructive you really are - and she, and the other NSDs, can't afford to take that risk and see the truth.

ya know free, your words were kind towards gmb, "conniving, heartless, and detached from the reality".

she is a bernie madoff, in the mlm world.

i have some words to describe her and all the rest of her cronies............more colorful that yours.

our attorney general of the usa needs to arrest her for the unlawful practices she is doing.
she needs to be found guilty.
she needs to be in jail for 150 years.
that was bernie's sentence when he was found guilty.
she has destroyed many many lives, families.
taking the monies of women that trust her, that the "business" she is selling is legal.
never ever does she say in her comical way of getting laughs........hey women this is a mlm investment you are investing in.

all along she knows that the only way to "make it" is to do what i call "duckin and slidin", illegal maneuvers.

also i think corps and the nsd are always reading this site...........they have to keep their game up to know what lies to come up with because of the truth we say here that their people read about.

free you the best! thanks on your input!

the best to all today.........outta here!

That's interesting about corps and NSD's reading this site. I'm thinking they couldn't possibly be reading it with any regularity. If they did, they'd start to see things differently like those of us who unplugged from MK and plugged in here. They'd grow a conscience and couldn't continue on with business as usual. I think they have to be shielded from what's going on here to keep up the pretense. No one can have it both ways. It would take too much work to reconvince someone to continue deceiving women once they read everything on this site. This site really does speak the truth!!

I've often wondered how many of the NSD-eities actually read stuff like this. I wonder how many kay-bots actually read this regularly and continue to stay in.

recoveringmkaddict - I absolutely believe Corpse and some NSD's read PT. They won't change the way business is done as long as those wholesale orders keep coming in. Too much money at stake.

[quote]start to see things differently like those of us who unplugged from MK [/quote]

Funny you should use those terms. I have a theory MK is like the Matrix and leaving is like getting unplugged from it!

Yeah...take the red pill, ladies! Read Pink Truth!

[quote]My NSD explained to me that
children grow up everyday with or without their parents.[/quote]
WTF?!?

Does she understand what happens to so many of those children? Has she ever been in a neighborhood where that's common? Children without care from their parents look to other sources for that care. That's why we have such a big gang problem in our cities.

[quote]Has she ever been in a neighborhood where that's common? [/quote]"That" would be growing up without the parents' support, of course.

My NSD never had children so she really wouldn't have a clue and I really hope that she does read this site too. Hope that she's proud of herself.

Several things come to mind when I read this.
Scrib-The visual of GMB working at Popeye's cracked me up-Hilarious! I truly believe GMB LOVES all the attention she gets and equates herself to a famous movie star. All her downline are just the annoying paparazzi. I actually met her while in an elevator at Leadership. She was actually pretty nice but then again, couldn't run away from me either. I remember being so excited to meet her. Now I am disgusted at how we were all acting like star struck teenagers.
I can do you one better on Pam Shaw giving away her used clothes. My NSD actually charged money for her used clothes and called that her prize for Stars. Yes, come and drive 2 hrs to raid my closest of used clothes. I think she charged $10-$20 or something and it was first come first serve depending on how big your Star order was. So if you did the lowly $1800, any Star above you got to pick first. Needless to say no one from unit went b/c it was so lame but I honestly believe she thought she was being very generous b/c most Nationals don't give their own prizes. I bet some of you are speechless huh?

kirads! I have a Shirl and Me pic too!!Dag..we are OLD. Now I am wondering if maybe we couldn't trade 'em like baseball cards. I have a GMB and a LISA.M that I'll let go for a Pregnant Dacia...any takers?

Raisen, I'm old too and had a picture with Shirley Hutton many, many years ago. I threw it out many years ago too. She visited our unit and only about 10 people showed up, so it was really nice to listen to her. I was mesmerized at my young age and so wanted to be successful just like she was. Oh well, she's old now too right?

Raisin - I've got a GMB, Lisa M, Sheryl Steinman, Judy McCoy & an older one. (Can't remember her name for the life of me - she packed shot gun shells in a factory?? - towards the end of her tenure as an NSD - she seemed more drunk each time she was on stage - come on, someone has to know who I'm talking about!!) A little help?

Oneless, it is Nancy Tiejen. Do I get a ribbon?

Hey Oneless,

I heard the shotgun shells story but I have no idea who it was.
I would LOVE to hear more if anyone out there knows.

I saw her at Seminar and of course at that time, late 70's, they made the biggest deal of the fact that she was packing shotgun shells for a living before MK. So, she had a factory job, as if that was really lousy. At least she probably had health insurance and other benefits. I have heard stories of her like Oneless has, but after being in MK, maybe drinking is a good option!

Thank You JTA and 2pink4me for sharing the truth about MK pink brainwashing. Money is the root of all evil and it shows in a company like MK. I hope someone would sue the evil doers of MK and put the company out of business. MK Corp. is a sick and dangerous company.

Next Quarter's Star Consultant Prize:

NSD Trading Cards

Get 1 card for each $1,200 wholesale ordered.

Order $4,800 wholesale in one quarter and receive 1 free card for a total of 5.

Earn 4 additional cards for each qualifying recruit who places a $3,600 wholesale within 24 hours of signing her agreement.

Collect all the cards in the series and receive a pink plastic binder to store them in. MKC retail value $48.99 Reality retail value $0.99

Cards will be selected at random. Duplicates cannot be returned to Corp for exchange.

Thanks for re-posting this one Tracy. I have been waiting for it to resurface. Kudos to jta and 2pink4me for sharing. I know that lurkers are reading and feeling their squeamish stomachs churn with the truth in this article and comments. I hate MK!!!

Photos with NSDs....I have several with Dalene White! Any takers? For those of you who aren't OLD, she was the very first beauty consultant, an nsd and Mary Kay's best friend! In fact, I have a stash of pix with....Rena Tarbet, Shirley, Pam Shaw, G L O RRRRR I A,
Dacia, Nancy T (her eyes were bloodshot), Lisa M, ..... just to name a few. I'm taking bids for the highest offer. They make wonderful dartboards!

TNT I'll take the nancy T and trade you a Carol Anton, plus My GMB, which I wired to repeat her anthem. We're talking Antique Roadshow here...

Still Breaking...do the NSD trading cards have stats on the back? Like how many women they frontloaded? And average frontloaded amount? Or like how many Directors bombed out of their NIQ area? Top Chargeback month? How many Unit members/Area IBC's are gone within a year? Average price of a guest event ticket? These are the stats I'd like to see...cause we all know "yada yada Unit Club" is 100% bogus!

oh yeah, Nancy Tiejen! THANKS! Goodness, it was going to bother me all night long!

Wow, the last time I saw that woman was the Leadership she retired - she did an actual "jig" onstage at leadership when she was introduced. My girlfriend looked at me and said - "she's either really happy, or she's high on something". I thought Gary Jinks was going to pass out of embarrassement. He was dumbfounded.

Then there is Gayle Gaston with her little "boy toy" running around her heels. It was just too bizarre. Oh the things you see at the Director level - not always pleasant!

Yea..Nancy T. Poor thing. I hope she got help by now. I saw one of her Seminar Speeches where she was clearly three sheets to the wind. But there again is another of those "do as I say not as I do". When you get to the Director level, you find out about all the stashed booze in the Hotel rooms---while the no alcohol policy is touted to the consultants.

Excellent article and truth from other ex-SDs. Your sharing your stories is so critical to getting the truth out so others won't make the same mistakes. Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing. What amazing stories!

Yeah, I saw one of her speeches before she retired. She was pretty loaded and her thought process was not very cogent. It was all a lot of random rah-rah, sob story, rah-rah, and bragging about how she has so much money that she just buys houses and gives them away. I was wondering why she had to have so much plastic surgery when MK was supposed to be such a superior product. Sadly, it will took me several years to totally get out after that one seminar. However, I'm locked out today and what's left of MK is almost completely purged from my life. It's a beautiful thing!

I've got pics w/ Ann Newbury (seemed so nice), Irene Shea (seemed like a bitch),
Shelly Gladstein, Gloria MB, Jackie Laprade and a couple others I don't remember their names! Any offers will be considered

Great article and stories - seriously, we could all write books about what we've been through and the LIE that is MK.

I always wondered about Ann Newbury. I was at the Seminar when she retired as NSD up on stage. MK gives NSDs a special bonus check upon retiring. When Ann Newbury was handed her check and asked what she had planned on doing with. She replied that this check was going to HERSELF and that she was using
to fix her teeth. I guess that maybe she was either having implants or caps, or veneers. But I thought why wait that long to finally fix your teeth when you are an NSD? You wait until you retire to fix your teeth? I thought to myself, she couldn't afford it before? What did she do with ALL that money she made? You know all the MILLIONS she proclaimed that she made in MK over the years. She FINALLY decided to keep tha LAST check for herself? What did she do with all the other ones? I used to think about and wonder about it? It never set right with me but I think that maybe I understand now. Maybe some those NSDs aren't as rich as we think either. Maybe everything in MK is a lie.

[quote]Photos with NSDs....I have several with Dalene White! Any takers? For those of you who aren't OLD, she was the very first beauty consultant, an nsd and Mary Kay's best friend![/quote]

Is that Sir Drydoc's mommy?

I always thought great things about Ann Newbury. I don't think she and those of the Dalene White era really understand what lengths the last 3 decades of "top directors" have degenerated into...nor what they had to do to survive an archaic multi-level scheme.

Ann Newbury attracted people to her because her personality is exact opposite of GMB and those other flashy women. Lots have changed since the 70's when women were joining in droves to get out of the house. Women today want to get back in the house...not to work from home by the way, to spend time with family. That's another misused MK approach.

I met both Ann Newbury and Dalene White and had director training with both of them at my area retreats. I have a small area so we sat right next to them. The thing that struck me the most was how incredibly different things were in the 60's and 70's when they were building their business. What they did would never work now. Dalene said how much fun it was, what their meetings were like and how they NEVER stressed out about production or selling like we have driven ourselves to today. That is because there were about 10 items in the line that they weren't changing every quarter and there was NO CREDIT CARDS! Plus the home party thing was only 10-15 yrs old at the time. No computers, caller ID, email etc. Ann spoke the same way. Completely different era-I thought to myself "Too bad I wasn't a consultant back then, it actually sounds like it could have been alot of fun."

yeah Wiser - I'm sure it was very different way back then. If you didn't have the cash, you didn't have the product. It was the way it was. When the credit cards started to really flow - that was the beginning of the front-loading era. It also speaks volumes to how stupid many people are to be using credit to live well beyond their means. Whatever happened to delayed gratification? Guess I'm old-school.

I spent a weekend with Ann Newbury at a Team Leader Retreat almost 5 years ago (it was her last year in MK). She was so nice, looked you in the eye when speaking with you and always asking about you. She truly made you feel important (you know, like the sign MK talks about around your neck). I liked her and respected her. She also said it should be fun and stress free. She was all about saying that you should only become a director if you want to - no pressure at all! When you posed for a picture with her, she put her arm around you and when the pic was done, she would tap you and say goodbye or continue to talk with you. The one time I met GMB, she flashed that huge smile for the pic, then turned it off like switching off a light and walked away without a word. They are really from two different MK worlds. I would have rather been in the old one. I don't think this company was always the joke it is now.

HonestConsultant:What I don't understand is why what others within MK are doing has an affect on any of you? Because their behavior affects your business, that's why.

When the woman who makes a commission off what you buy conceals that a product change is coming and urges that you buy a lot of something that is obsolete the next week, can you see how that affects your business? Would you have bought those pink (or silver) compacts if you knew the color and shape of the insets was changing the next month?

When your director recruits your best customer, doesn't that affect you?

You are your own person, you make your own choices. No. You cannot make rational choices unless you know the relevant facts that will influence that choice. Lies of omission are still lies. Decisions made under the influence of psychological manipulation are not freely made.

Mary Kay refuses to reveal the number of consultants in an area, and if you don't know how numerous the competition is, how can you make a business decision? Mary Kay conceals their "product roadmap", and if you don't know when product changes are coming, how can you plan inventory?

Directors are taught, explicitly and by example, to conceal any and all difficulties - a policy that has been seen in training material straight from Mary Kay Corporate. How can you make a rational choice if you don't know the truth about what others are experiencing?

I suggest you study group psychology a bit ... Mary Kay methods are slick, well-practiced "coercive persuasion" whether the individuals are aware of what they are doing or just following the example of their upline. Look up "The Milgram Experiment", "The Stanford Experiment", and "The Lucifer Effect".

Read these articles:
http://www.pinktruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1454&Itemid=115
http://www.pinktruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=470&Itemid=115

Read this article and follow the links:
http://www.pinktruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1621&Itemid=115

Just because xxx is a lying, cheating, manipulative wench and she works for Mary Kay does not, by default, make Mary Kay an evil company that every woman should stay away from. When a company knows that they have an NSD, or a director, or even an IBC that is a lying, cheating wench and they allow them to continue because the wench is making them money, it makes them a company to stay away from.

If you cannot afford to buy products or attend events, then don't do it. Being in a financial strain is no ones fault but your own. And the upline that keeps pushing "this is the event that will make it all happen for you" is blameless?

The upline that pretends they are rolling in money even though they have 4 credit cards maxxed out with inventory and have been making co-pays on the car because the unit isn't buying enough is blameless?

And seriously, what does Mary Kay Ash's love-life have to do with anything? When the number of husbands she had is deliberately concealed in order to make the woman's "I-Story" more compelling, to make it look like she overcame even more obstacles than she did, it's an indication that the rot starts at the top.

***********
Required FDA disclosure: I am not paid by anyone to make snarky comments about Mary Kay the company, its contract sales force, or its products. I do it for the fun

HonestConsultant - The reason you do not understand is that you do not know the truth. You obviously have not read the NSD's own training on their Unitnet sites. The thousands of lies are exposed on this website. Women who have earned multiple cars, rings, trips, and almost made NSD are here spilling the secrets that corporate so desperately wants to keep hidden.

You need to know who works in the Mary Kay company, and read the real news articles about them. They are selling you CHEAP products with CHEAP ingredients, that you are selling to women who don't want wrinkles.

READ THE INGREDIENTS! Oh wait, they don't list those do they?

You my friend have been brainwashed.

"Blaming MK...for your financial strains...is completely invalid."

Incorrect. Mary Kay is not infallible and Ash is not a demigod, even though that gospel is regularly preached within your culture. ("Would I do this if Mary Kay Ash were standing right next to me? What would she say?"

I love how the drones are so quick to shift blame solely onto recruits who leave the business. And yet, before the Agreement is signed, the potential recruit might as well be Aphrodite herself. Consider Exhibit A, a training document entitled, "Responses from your Heart":

"Look your prospect right in the eyes. Touch her arm. (Have a SINCERE look on your face and FEEL that sincerity in your heart!) Say with conviction, "You'd be great doing what I do - I look for people of your caliber every day and I'd love to work with you!"

Nothing in that wording shifts the blame onto the prospect, agreed? It's all about how MK will help that potential fulfill her dream, all about how the recruit is high-caliber, and how great she'd be even though the recruiter is basing that assumption on anywhere from 30 seconds (warm-chatting) to 2 hours (an SCC) of interaction.

Later on when the prospect has signed on, works her business for a number of months, and begins to see/learn all the things that weren't told/glossed over in the beginning, oh, how quickly the tune changes! Dear ol' Mary Kay Ash and all those BFF wagon-hitchers quickly turn their backs back on the struggling IBC for having the audacity to speak "negativity" (i.e. ask questions or address genuine business concerns.)

Mary Kay Cosmetics is not as infallible as it would have you believe - admiting wrongdoing would mean a loss of money, and they can't have THAT now, can they?

We do what we do here to warn and inform women, because your leaders sure as sugar aren't going to do it.

Regarding recruiting in Mary Kay, I feel it's fairly accurate to state that the greater the ignorance of those below you, the greater your paycheck.

"Blaming MK...for your financial strains...is completely invalid."

Incorrect. Mary Kay is not infallible and Ash is not a demigod, even though that gospel is regularly preached within your culture. ("Would I do this if Mary Kay Ash were standing right next to me? What would she say?"

I love how the drones are so quick to shift blame solely onto recruits who leave the business. And yet, before the Agreement is signed, the potential recruit might as well be Aphrodite herself. Consider Exhibit A, a training document entitled, "Responses from your Heart":

"Look your prospect right in the eyes. Touch her arm. (Have a SINCERE look on your face and FEEL that sincerity in your heart!) Say with conviction, "You'd be great doing what I do - I look for people of your caliber every day and I'd love to work with you!"

Nothing in that wording shifts the blame onto the prospect, agreed? It's all about how MK will help that potential fulfill her dream, all about how the recruit is high-caliber, and how great she'd be even though the recruiter is basing that assumption on anywhere from 30 seconds (warm-chatting) to 2 hours (an SCC) of interaction.

Later on when the prospect has signed on, works her business for a number of months, and begins to see/learn all the things that weren't told/glossed over in the beginning, oh, how quickly the tune changes! Dear ol' Mary Kay Ash and all those BFF wagon-hitchers quickly turn their backs back on the struggling IBC for having the audacity to speak "negativity" (i.e. ask questions or address genuine business concerns.)

Mary Kay Cosmetics is not as infallible as it would have you believe - admiting wrongdoing would mean a loss of money, and they can't have THAT now, can they?

We do what we do here to warn and inform women, because your leaders sure as sugar aren't going to do it.

Regarding recruiting in Mary Kay, I feel it's fairly accurate to state that the greater the ignorance of those below you, the greater your paycheck.

Sorry 'bout that double post - must be a post-Halloween trick!

Lazy Gardens, you are priceless!

hey nutmeg, i got to thinkin'. I loved Ann as well. But the whole world is stress free and fun when you make 100 thou a month. I asked myself, if all these ladies were so noble...and righteous, did any of them ever send out a notification that the one year mark was approaching and if they knew that mk was not for them, to be sure and return their merchandise for the 90% buyback?

Under the pretense that you never know, and you wouldn't want to "close the door", they watched hundreds and perhaps thousands of women come in and blow out with hundreds of thousands of dollars in merchandise. The exit counseling is ALWAYS, "dont close the door!"

Well we know that that is bogus as well. You CAN close the door and open it again later with a sob story and a star order.

So any way you cut it, these ladies make the lions share of their money on the transfer of wealth from new IBC's and Director wannabees...

because as we all know, selling the product is NOT where the money is made.
All NSD's know it. They TEACH it. So that means...every single National is content to have their Directors mine for gold, trying to build Directors (profit centers) and suckering new recruits with the notion of inflated inventory...till they do one of two things;wise up and cut losses or jump on the career path.

When it dawns on you that the supposed best of the best--the Court of Sales is actually less than 14,000 profit before section 2, and HOW many again are Court of Sales in your Unit??? Hmm? One? two? Out of ...60? 80? The picture clears up a whole lot.(Particularly when you also know how few actually SELL court level-buying it is so much easier!)

They KNOW they are stealing cash from YOUR credit line, and profitting on it.

And even when its time to go, and you exit and try to liquidate...Mary Kay closes down the way to regain even pennies on the dollar.

Sorry, I can't cut any of them slack. They know exactly what they've done.

Lazy Garden and Scrib, you addressed Honestconsultant so well, you both are PT treasures!

Honest, I was a SD for 2 years and you see and hear so much more on that level than you do as a consultant.

I agree that MK is a company and that it exists to make a profit what I object to is that they claim to be different from other companies and that they exists to enrich the lives of women. The facts say otherwise.

Why all the product changes and the secrecy concerning them? Why sue Touch of Pink, a liquidator that truly does help consultants get rid of mountains of product they can't sell? Why do they lie to SD about future changes? How can they continue to turn a blind eye to the finacial stresses and destruction being faced by the majority of their sales force? Why don't they address the unethical behaviors of so many of their top directors and NSD's? Why don't they use CC and Seminar to truly provide training and not just hype?

They don't care but they advertise that they do.

You are right that I do have to take responsibility for my actions as a IBC and a SD in MK and I have. I am not a victim, but I was taken advantage of, given false information, not enough information and I was lied to. I post on PT to warn others and to give them the info. I did not have.

I hope you will keep reading.

Honestconsultant-
Welcome to Pink Truth! Since you're honest, you will find the reading here just as honest and will no doubt spit out that pink koolaid and join us in honest articles and posting.

HonestConsultant:

If MK is so viable, why are the number of consultants decreasing? Why do the number of new diector debuts at Seminar continue to decline as well? Why are the number of NSDs, as well as their monthy commissions, declining in Applause?

If the products are as worthy as you say, why are they rarely mentioned, if ever, in national magazines like Allure, Lucky and InStyle?

Why aren't more potential customers pursuing consultants instead of the other way around? If the product truly sold itself, consultants wouldn't spend so much time cold calling, warm chattering and outright stalking potential customers.

And why doesn't MK base their purported #1 status on sales to end users the way other companies do? Their sales numbers are sales to consultants, not customers?

On second thought, as far as MK is concerned, the consultant is the end user. Corp and directors don't care what the consultant does with inventory. As long as it's not returned for credit and subsequent chargebacks, that is.

"Consider reviewing the Gestalt Protocol."

OK. I did. There is one feature of the Gestalt Protocol that is conspicuously missing from the seminars, conferences, unit sites, and weekly meetings held in Mary Kay. This site is providing that balance.

[url=http://lfp-blog.com/dr-lams-blog/dallas-life-philosophy/lessons-from-eo-part-5-of-5-gestalt/]Gestant Protocol[/url].

What's the missing part? Part of the Gestalt Protocol is discussing what did not work for you and why. It requires being honest about your failures as well as the successes.

What do we see in the communication stream from the Mary Kay upline? Unrelenting positivity, as if every one of them could do the 3x3x3 consistently. Advice to do this, that and the other with no reason to beee-lieve that the person recycling the stale script or page of marketing tips has ever made it work for herself.

***********
forming a band of MK-haters who "liquidate" their over-stock--thus profiting At best, a liquidator buys for half what the consultant paid. Even the "90% buy-back" only covers part of a consultant's purchases. It's cutting a loss, not making a profit.
************
As a consultant, though, a place like this is damaging. After I discovered this site I suddenly realized why some people have a negative opinion of the company.

Don't blame this site. It's a reaction to the evil, manipulative wenches who "race to the top".

How did I find out about this hair-pulling match? I’ve was warm chatted by a Mary Kay lady. It was disturbing. All I wanted to do was pick up a tool at Sears, get a book for a road trip, and get back to gardening. My hair was in a pony tail, my fingernails full of dirt, my levis were clean but ripped, and my t-shirt was a well-worn promo from a local landscaper. And a too-perky, over-dressed woman with troweled-on makeup is pretending that I'm her long lost buddy. I thought maybe I had known her in high school … or college? Did we once work together? She had that generic "realtor" short perky bleached-blonde haircut and enough makeup to conceal any clue about her age.

She had me puzzled until I asked her, “Who the hell are you and why are you trying so hard to talk to me”? She quickly shoved a business card into my hand and asked me if I wanted a makeover. Me? Want a lesson in troweling pigmented chemicals onto my skin? No thanks!

Well, accosting strangers in shopping malls isn’t what I consider a winning sales tactic, especially when the stranger looks like she should be outside waving a leaf blower. But it made me curious enough to check out the company named on the business card - Mary Kay Cosmetics - and guess who ranks tops on Google searches for Mary Kay sales tactics … the blog formerly known as "Mary Kay Sucks".

HC wrote:

"However, a company like Touch of Pink is taking business away from Mary Kay by selling Mary Kay products."

NO, THEY ARE NOT "TAKING BUSINESS AWAY FROM MK." Those products were meant to be sold to end users. Whether the sale is actually made by the consultant who purchased directly from MK Inc or made by TOP is irrelevant. Mary Kay made all of their profit on the sale of the product, and the product was MEANT to be sold to an end user. And that's exactly what happens through TOP. MK is not losing any business because of that.

And a note to HC...

You compare MK to legitimate businesses, and suggest that the tactics and modus operandi are the same. They're not.

Mary Kay thrives on things that ordinary businesses do not:
* pretending to be your friend in order to coerce you to do certain things that they claim are in your best interest (and you have little opportunity to determine whether it really is or is not in your best interest)
* promoting cult-like behavior and the shunning of those who leave the cult
* discouraging you from doing any sort of research or independent analysis, and shunning you if it is found out that you do so

Mary Kay is your typical wolf in sheep's clothing. They run around pretending to "enrich women," when what they do is leave hundreds of thousands of women worse off financially each year.

You wrote: "As a consultant, though, a place like this is damaging."

Really? But isn't this just the sort of research you suggested consultants need to do? After all, you are blaming the consultants for believing the lies they were told by women who seemed honest. You're blaming the consultant for following the advice of a director who claimed she had the consultant's best interest at heart and claimed to have the experience necessary to know what's best. You're blaming the consultant for being part of group-think that is encouraged (and demanded) on a cult-like level.

You've reverted to the old "nobody put a gun to your head" type of argument, and that just doesn't fly here. The level of deception and manipulation within MK goes far beyond anything I've ever seen in any business. It is shameful. And it is why this site will continue to exist and will continue to tell the truth to women.

Brainwashing: the application of coercive techniques to change the values and beliefs, perceptions and judgments, and subsequent mindsets and behaviors of one or more people, usually for political, financial, personal, or religious purpose.

HC said to Scrib: "The rest of your commentary is a complete logical fallacy, so I won't waste my time."

Really? Gee, you gave the common courtesy of a response to everyone else, yet when I quote your leaders' teachings back to you, you run. Is seeing what's being taught by your NSDs and directors that uncomfortable for you?

You may not follow an MK gospel or see Ash as a deity, but you better bee-lieve most of your culture is:

“What if Mary Kay visited us at our next sales meeting – WOW! Something to think about, isn’t it? I like to pretend she’s with me whenever I am representing our company. What would she see – how would I be dressed – what would she hear me saying?” (“Mary Kay is Watching!” training document)

“I read the daily MK quote in my datebook; it said something like "You might be the only Mary Kay someone will ever meet." Immediately, I thought, isn't that a Christian phrase, like "You might be the only Jesus someone will ever meet?" (Former IBC)

ESSD Stephanie Valure’s thoughts regarding an MK retreat: “The whole first night I sat there, starry-eyed and stunned…that was the night Mary Kay truly came into my heart.” (“Dimensions of Caring” Applause Mar 2006)

You can believe whatever you wish, NC, but it takes a pretty high level of denial to ignore your leaders' own words.

"Do I agree with using manipulation to sway someone's opinion? Of course not. However, it is something that occurs frequently when you're talking sales. Not only with Mary Kay, but all companies with a product to sell. That's the nature of the beast."

Target and Walgreens aren't claiming "God First," though. If Mary Kay is going to hawk a strong claim like that, as a Christian, I am not only going to hold their feet to the fire, I am going to shove their heels into the charcoal briquetts.

Based on how God's dealt with manipulation and half-truths in the past (Ananias and Sapphira; Jezebel), He ain't winking or stifling a giggle every time a consultant tells a customer, "You have to ask your husband? But if you ask him tonight and he says no, you won't get it. If you buy it today and he throws a fit, you still got it!" (NSD Lynda Jackson)

What I love is that she said to my reply, she doubts she will stop drinking the pink kool aid!

HonestConsultant[quote]Psychological manipulation is only effective if the person receiving such manipulation is -[color=gray]receptive [/color]- human.[/quote]
Fixed if for you.

Honest Consultant: You are very well scripted and versed, so unlike many who come here to blast us. But think of this, the years of experience that is represented in the women that regularly support this site is huge. I for one have been in MK for 16 yrs, and was a SD for 7. I've seen and experienced both sides of the coin (manipulation) and what these ladies have said is true.

I remember when I was in your shoes, I was new, educated, and wanted to be a success. It took me a long time to get to be a SD, because I had a conscience. But from early on - the subtle manipulation was there. "Don't say anything negative - always put everything in a positive light". My SD on many occasions taught that. If we had a bad week, we were taught to say it's "unbelievable" - which in code meant, it sucked! But to the unknowing person, they took it completely opposite. That's just one example - I have many, but I also have other things to do today than respond to you.

Give it some time, you may be doing everything right at this point, your SD could be the most wonderful person on earth, but I can guarantee at some point, you will be faced with the fact that what the Company's main way to manipulate is through lies of omission, you'll realize this, you might even do it yourself, but then we wouldn't be able to call you HonestConsultant.

I hope you see truly how things are before you get to that point.

HonestConsultant
[quote]It's impossible to change the past, but you can learn from it for the future.[/quote]
Yes, we can, and many of us have applies what we learned from the past and tried new things, and these efforts failed as well. The good news is, you can also learn from the experiences of others, which is why we share ours here.

[quote]That is why it is in your best interest to investigate the facts yourself rather than solely depending on the word of a probable stranger. Even coming to a place like this is informative in its own way. Albeit, most of what's here is inevitably opinion-based bias; it is still a source of information.[/quote]
Yes, it is. If this were available when I joined Mary Kay, I would never have made most of the mistakes that I made. Back then, there were no sources of information about Mary Kay other than those put out by Mary Kay, the company, and their press releases, and opinions from Mary Kay consultants. An unbiased source of information about it doesn't exist.

[quote]It's individual greed that inevitably causes some people to do things that contradict their values.
...
Psychological manipulation is only effective if the person receiving such manipulation is receptive. Educating yourself and knowing your values help to reduce, if not eliminate, the effectiveness of such tactics.[/quote]
Tell that to the people who designed and ran the [url=http://www.prisonexp.org/]Stanford Prison Experiments[/url]. They knew exactly what they were doing, yet they still got caught up in it.

There are all kinds of reasons people make decisions that don't look smart (or quite ethical) in hindsight. You can find more information about why are influenced the way we are at these sites:
[url]http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/03/26/expert-but-bad-financial-advice-turns-off-decision-making-in-the-brain/[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment[/url]

[quote]Do I agree with using manipulation to sway someone's opinion? Of course not. However, it is something that occurs frequently when you're talking sales. Not only with Mary Kay, but all companies with a product to sell. [/quote]Not at all to the same extent. We know salesman are not our mentors. But Mary Kay's claim that our sales directors are the knowledgable experts we should rely on for advice, is plausible. We think they are supposed to teach us, not realizing their true purpose is to sell to us. Their commission comes from what we buy. When a business pretends its its sales people are not trying to sell you something, it's dishonest, and people should be warned against it.

[quote]Selling within your local area is not the only option with technology today.[/quote]
There are about 120,000,000 women in the U.S. There are about 800,000 Mary Kay consultants in the U.S. That's about 1 consultant per 150 women in the whole country. Far too many for the market, nation-wide.

[quote]Of course they are. Who would want to join a company if their recruit approached them saying "I would like you to join my team, but I want you to know that Mary Sue had to file bankruptcy last week because she bought way more products than she could sell and lost everything." No one wants to hear that.[/quote]
Before I joined my company, they gave me what they saw as the down side to the job. They did not want to hire someone who wasn't suited to the working conditions. If they have to hide the down side, there's a problem with the opportunity.

[quote]The experiences of another do not affect your own experiences. To know about the struggles of others really has nothing to do with how well or poor a new recruit will do in the company.[/quote]
Ah, so it is just okay for them to lie about their experiences, because it doesn't matter to us whether they were successful or not? We should know better than to take them as our example, or take any advice from them? (This, even though you just admitted that actually telling about troubles will turn people off? Hmmm.)

Well, it's true. You should never believe anything you are told when someone tries to recruit you into an MLM. That is our message.

I prefer to have a job where advice and experience from my boss and coworkers is meaningful. I have benefitted so much from the experiences of others in my real job. They have kept me from making mistakes that would have hurt my productivity. They have guided me toward better ways. How awful to have to work in an environment where you can't trust what others tell you.

If I'd been "smart enough" to know that's what I was dealing with, I'd never have wanted any part of it.

[quote]However, forming a band of MK-haters who "liquidate" their over-stock--thus profiting from the very company they claim to so adamantly despise--and bash everything Mary Kay is not very professional or respectable.[/quote]
Huh?
1) If people have overstock that they have to sell for less than they paid for it, they are not profiting.
2) If liquidators who do profit from the fact that many consultants have stuff they can't get rid of, are bashing everything Mary Kay, they are not doing that here. The person who runs the trade boards gets nothing from the trades that happen on them.
3) If I made my living working for a women's shelter, the fact that I profit from men beating up on their women wouldn't stop me from despising the men who do that. Why should the liquidators, who are well aware of how commonly consultants are talked into buying stuff they don't need, not despise those who are hurting the consultants?

[quote]If a car salesman tells you the most expensive car on the lot is going to make your dreams come true, will you buy it if you cannot afford it? Probably not. So why do anything else in life you cannot afford simply because someone tries selling it to you.[/quote]
1) A car salesman isn't an expert in how to make money at my job.
2) The car salesman would not even try to tell me the car was an investment. That has no plausibility.
3) I don't lose anything if I don't buy the overpriced car. If I can't find a way to make up for the money I've already lost in Mary Kay, my family's financial situation suffers.

[quote]It's all about having enough smarts about you to stay out of a bad situation.[/quote]
Wow, that was really insulting. I think, if you knew who we actually were, you'd realize that in fact we're not all stupid. Many of us are intelligent, sensible, successful people, who failed at Mary Kay because we were set up to fail, but had the intelligence to get out, and the social responsibility to call Mary Kay and its representatives out.

[quote]However, a company like Touch of Pink is taking business away from Mary Kay by selling Mary Kay products.[/quote]
But they are selling Mary Kay products that some consultant already bought from Mary Kay.

[quote]So those of us who are still consultants now have to compete with a group who actually despises Mary Kay and gives the company a bad reputation, while still selling their products.[/quote]
You mean, those of you who sell Mary Kay have to compete with the products that go dirt cheap, because many consultants buy things they don't need. Why should those consultants not have the right to sell the products for whatever price they can get? Once they've bought the stuff from Mary Kay, they own it? Why do the liquidators not have the right to buy it from whoever they want, for whatever price they can get? Then, once they've bought it, they own it, and can sell it as they like.

The problem isn't the fact that someone is willing to buy Mary Kay stuff very cheaply and sell it for a little more. The problem is that so many people are duped into buying Mary Kay stuff they can't sell for even wholesale price, so they're willing to part with it at a big loss. That isn't the liquidator's fault.

[quote]Every business in the world only cares about how much you are bringing to them. That's what a business is for, not being sure that everyone is happy.[/quote]
Actually when you have a real job, they care about keeping people happy, so they'll stay, assuming their employees bring value to the company. It's one of the important differences between jobs and doing MLM.

[quote]Mary Kay is a big company so there are a lot of women who obviously got stepped on by those racing to the top. That still has nothing to do with Mary Kay the company, though. [/quote]
Of course it does. The company knows this happens, and when you are aware of people lying and cheating in your name, and you allow it, and tacitly encourage it, that makes you responsible for the lying and cheating.

[quote]I know women personally who love and swear by Mary Kay. I use Mary Kay myself and that's why I made the choice to sell it. I'm not expecting to become an overnight millionaire or even turn incredible profits from this endeavor.[/quote]
Those things all applied to me when I started with MK, too.

[quote]I'm not saying Mary Kay is made up of saints, but do you think any profiting business obtained their profits by integrity and hugs?[/quote]
Plenty of successful businesses have reasonable standards of integrity.

And, BTW, miss "honest consultant", many of us here did everything we could to run our Mary Kay "businesses" honestly. That didn't mean we were able to succeed. And those who ended up doing things that were less than honest, all believed them when they started doing it. There are a number of people here who were making money in Mary Kay, but quit because they realized the way they were doing it was dishonest. And most of those tried to reform their ways, and do it honestly first. Those who tried it, found it didn't work for them.

Nice, Rachel. You have an amazingly articulate response. I hope that honest consultant reads it.

Honest Consultant said: If I don't break even for any reason before my year hits, then I'll return the products and go on with my life.

She's a starry-eyed noobie.

HC, thanks for taking the time to respond to our posts.

I am not sure you quite grasp some of what I posted. MK Corp decides what will be in the product line and what will be advertised on the website a consultant buys and the Look books she uses. When they decide to do a massive change in product and not share that info with the sales force so that they can stop ordering the soon obsolete products and start liquidationg what is on their shelf, that has a profaound affect on a consultant's business.

I found out that the compact and glamour was changing by reading PT. I could not believe that MK was going to do that, so I talked to employees in product development and asked. I was a SD, 2% of the sales force, and they lied to me and told me no changes were coming.

My point is, I had unit members that I cared about that needed this information so that they could stop ordering the current product and liquidate what they had.

When the new comes out, no one you facial wants the old. They want what they see on the website or in the current book. So many consultants and directors were stuck with the old because they did not find out in time the change was coming.

That is out of one's control and it is something that radically affects your business. That is why I stepped down as a director and ultimately quit MK all together. I no longer wanted to be a part of a company that cared so little for its sales force and claimed to put God First and say the bottom line for MK is not profit but people.

You are who you choose to associate with and if you are ok with that, fine. I was not.

I will continue to post and be a part of PT as long as I am allowed to provide info to consultants like you, info you won't get from your SD or the company.

You actions do affect others, either for good or for bad. To think otherwise is naive and you will get burned or end up burning someone. I do hope that you will avoid some of the pitfalls that I and some of my former unit experienced.

Just a couple of more things to point out.

First you stated that PT is a place one can get information but that it is biased. May I ask where a new consultant can get reliable, unbiased info? Your SD benefits from each order you place so her answers will certainly not be unbiased. She has a vested interest in what you do. Her advice to you will certainly benefit her. MK Corp is not going to give you unbiased info because it is not in their best interest to do so. One of the things Touch of Pink was ordered by the court to keep quiet about was the 90% buy back offered by MK being good for product bought within a 12 month period. Why wouldn't MK not want their sales force to know this?

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. While what you read on PT may be biased, I do not profit in the least by telling you anything.

Second, you comment that the number of current consultants in your area does not really matter. That is just not true. Market saturation is something any good business person should be knowledgable about. That is why you do not see the same businesses across the street from one another. MK is the only business that seems to tell its consultant to not be concerned about market saturation. They have to tell you this so that you will recruit. They know that their number 1 customer is the consultant and so they want all the consultants they can get. What happens to the product after the consultant purchases is of little concern to them unless it hurts their image and makes it difficult to get knew recruits as in the case of
Touch of Pink and Ebay. Once a person sees all the MK for sale on the internet they will begin to wonder if it is possible to sell MK for retail.

Sorry to go on for so long. Difficult to address these issues with short explanations.

Lurkers, please consider the distorted logic of HC. While I don't doubt her sincerety I do recognize her responses. They are 'party line' responses spoken by one well trained by MK. I find nothing unique in any of her remarks. Heard it all before from more than one SD, NSD and MK Corp employee.

[[size=large][color=red]b]Lurkers, please consider the distorted logic of HC. While I don't doubt her sincerity I do recognize her responses. They are 'party line' responses spoken by one well trained by MK. I find nothing unique in any of her remarks. Heard it all before from more than one SD, NSD and MK Corp employee.[/b][/color][/size]

Thank you Chop....These are the most profound words written on this whole page.

PP

"There are about 120,000,000 women in the U.S. There are about 800,000 Mary Kay consultants in the U.S. That's about 1 consultant per 150 women in the whole country. Far too many for the market, nation-wide."

And only 1% of the 800,000 make the executive income at the expense of the other 99%.

Because the 99% of the other consultants are the true customers of MK.

If that isn't a pyramid, what is?

I really do not have the time to respond to everything individually again. I do appreciate the forth-right and considerate input from some who responded to me. I'm certainly more receptive to those who are not demanding that things are one way and one way only and I can appreciate what was said by those individuals.

As of now, I feel that I'm in an honest unit within MK and yes I am new to the company, but I pride myself on being educated and socially apt. Maybe my trust in my unit will change in the future. Who knows? I disagree with the extremist mentality though, so even if I would ever give up on MK as a company, I wouldn't join in on something like PT. It goes against my way of thinking. There are no absolutes in the world.

Like I mentioned previously, coming here is a form of education too. Some feathers may get ruffled by me saying anything here, but even the huffy responses teach me something; mostly that those individuals are overly sensitive and not accustom to having a rational debate with an opposing opinion or view-point, but also that a lot of women have been hurt by MK in some way.

My aim was not to insult anyone here. The remark about having smarts was not intended to be a stab at anyone's intelligence. A person can know the contents of every book in the world and still not know how to deal with people. That's what I was referring to. Obtaining knowledge is only part of having smarts, in my opinion. If you disagree, that's perfectly fine because "in a room full of opinions, when I leave, my opinion always wins." (I cannot remember who said that for the life of me! It is true, though.)

I'm sure I didn't touch on everyone's responses, but I have work to get done. I did read everything and I do appreciate the input as I'm sure any others who are trying to learn about what they're involved with does as well.

And I don't know why I feel a need to say this, but the work I'm mentioning does not involve MK. My articulation exists because I'm a writer first and a consultant after.

All the best.

[quote]A person can know the contents of every book in the world and still not know how to deal with people. That's what I was referring to.[/quote]It's insulting to imply someone doesn't have smarts, no matter whether you're talking about "book smarts" or some other kind. My success at some previous positions had as much to do with my ability to network, and my managers' perception of my leadership abilities, as it did with my acedemic abilities. My success waiting tables came from being good with the customers, well organized, and good at selling without turning people off.

It's a normal, healthy, productive characteristic of humans they we listen to those in authority, and try to learn from them. It doesn't work well, only when they use it in twisted ways.

HC, I appreciate your last response. I do hope that you will continue to visit and post when you want.

I am troubled by one statement, that you believe there are no absolutes in this world. That is an absolute.

Actually if you jump off a tall building you will absolutely fall because of the laws of gravity. If you add 1 plus 1 you will absolutely arrive at 2, always.

God is a god of absolutes. What you do and say will absolutely affect others either for good or bad. Sin is an absolute, death is an absolute. The sun always rises and sets because orbit of earth around sun is an absolute.

Other opinions are welcome on PT but they will be addressed. I am afraid that some of what you wrote are not your opinions but what you have learned from MK training. Sounded like pink propoganda to me. I addressed what you said for 2 reasons, for you and for the lurkers that read.

Keep in touch.

HonestConsultant - I'm a bit confused - in a different post, you said that you've been in MK for 28 yrs. In this thread - you're new. Which one is it?
Or did I read it wrong?

I'm curious.

Hey Oneless, we had 2 players. HC was on this thread and Ms. Alaska was on another. Think you are confusing them. But then they sound so much alike who wouldn't?

HC - Your statements here have been intentionally insulting from the start. Even today's comments by you are intentionally insulting. This is your one and only warning to start showing some respect or you will no longer be permitted to post here. My patience with you has run out.

oooohhhhh, that's why it didn't make sense! Thanks Chop! Obviously I was running on too little sleep and coffee!

Thanks for the correction. My apologies.

No worries Oneless, I can relate!

My SD no longer has any directors underneathher and still advertises herself as as a Sr. Sales Director.